(This is Rob's reply & comments - I'm posting it afresh to make it easier to read, and I'll post a follow-up at some stage...)
Thanks Dan, i enjoyed reading that - here is my rather hastily written response:
Now, don't get me wrong - i never said Gordon Brown wasn't an idiot ;) i just said that i thought he was sincere.
i actually agree with you more than you might think. i don't believe in imposing morality (because, as you say, then it is not true moral behaviour) - i believe in free will and the autonomy of individuals to act.
i believe in free markets, however i don't think they are anywhere near as 'free' at the moment as you seem to suppose. As i said to you earlier, it is about creating the illusion of freedom, the illusion of choice and autonomy. Try and step outside those boundaries and you will quickly find yourself ostracised from society, if not jailed. So we cannot pretend that everything is happy go lucky freedom town.
What i don't see however, in your very well thought out response, is much of a solution. This is the problem i have, it is easy to criticise but very difficult to offer an alternative...rather than attacking one another we need to be combining different ideologies to try and work out a solution.
You haven't addressed the issue of constant growth being unsustainable. What are we growing from? Where is the seed that allows unmitigated and supposedly infinite growth of economies? Is it the increased levels of production and efficiency that technology brings? Even that will be limited by time at some point...so what happens then?
Free markets need to be limited somehow - i do agree that it shouldn't be by intense regulation - because they cannot just grow indefinitely.
Although the economic and industrial boom over the past century or so has lead to untold riches, luxuries, and solutions to many of our problems - it will almost certainly come at a very strong price. The problem in the way we trade, create, grow economically at the moment is that for the vast vast majority of us we are looking short-term - we are thinking about ourselves.
We are not thinking rationally, but selfishly. As long as our family and friends are happy very few of us take even a minute a day to consider others that share this world with us, not all of them human.
Environmental damage is at a tipping point, and yet we scrap sustainable energy programmes because they are not profitable economically.
Social inequalities have improved somewhat through massive economic expansion of the twentieth century, but only for some. As long as it isn't on our backdoor we don't feel the need to worry about it - somebody else will do that...always somebody else.
What i am calling for, and i honestly don't give a stuff about Gordon Brown (even though it's easier to lump me in with the 'lefties' ;P), is for everybody to consider whether or not the descent into individuality and unbridled self-centeredness was/is really worth it.
What are we losing by doing this? My spiritual beliefs align with the idea that it is the ego, the selfish nature of humankind, that brings this physical reality further and further away from the Light. It causes all of our suffering and ensures that G-d is slowly pushed further and further out of the picture.
But i digress....
What i want to know is, what is the alternative? More 'information'? This crisis was caused in an age where information is exploding exponentially!
It is a bit of a mysnomer to say that nobody understood what they were trading. Most people might not understand it, but it is a bit patronising to say that nobody did. Why did they do it then? Because they thought they could ride the gravy-train home...
Why did they really do it?
Because they knew that in the end, when they finally failed, they would be bailed out by the government/s. They knew this, it was an inherent aspect of why this occured. There was no sense of responsibility or consequence because many of these institutions KNEW that they were 'too big to fail'. i say let them fail, because without consequence there is no morality (with very few exceptions). We cannot just build up another system that grows until a point where it is unsustainable and then collapses again - that cycle of history is undeniable and the charts (for what they are worth) just show it getting bigger and bigger each time.
If we get out of this one...you just wait until the next one and see how long it takes to build confidence then.
So what we need to be discussing is not who is an idiot and who isn't, but what are our options? What are the real alternatives, if any?
The time to be divisive for political, ideological, and egotistical reasons is long gone. If we don't rise above these vestiges of the human ego and realise that we are at a real tipping point in humanities history then i am afraid to say that i think all that we have gained will be lost, and within our - or at least our children's - lifetimes.
i'm not a lefty, i'm not right-wing, i'm not center. i fall into all of those categories at points depending on what we are talking about at the time. We need flexibility, not stubborn ideology. We need to listen, not instantly dismiss.... Read more
Most importantly, when we disagree we need to offer an alternative. Because otherwise we are just wasting time that we really don't have to waste.